Is ®¦ a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in " under" than ¦w? Re: ­µ¼Ð¸Ì­±ªº¤@­Ó­µ

[射鷹英雌]

：
KimoWebBBS!netnews.kimo.com.tw!news.csie.ncu!news.ncu!ctu-peer!Spring!n
Mr. Peacenik?
pronounce a word with reference to a
English intuitively think it is the closest to upside-down /v/ among the
vowels he can find in Mandarin Chinese.

He is hereby advised to refrain from citing a language he "thinks" he

knows.
I "think" I know english because I'm a native speaker of English.

I think you really mean U.S.ish.

Did you not cite 恩 as a "close" pronunciation for /un/ in "under"? The problem was you "thought" you knew Mandarin.

analysis I know of.
concerned. Therefore he provided a link to a site where you can hear how the
word is actaully pronounced, didn't he?

Providing a link was good. Citing a misleading example was a very

bad thing to do in tw.bbs.lang.english.
I was countering a misleading example. Someone suggested 安 as being close
to "un". I merely suggested that there is an even closer (but not
equivalent) example in Chinese.

Is 恩 a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in "under" than 安?

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Peacenik

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[´¶³q¤H]

analysis I know of.
concerned. Therefore he provided a link to a site where you can hear how the
word is actaully pronounced, didn't he?

Providing a link was good. Citing a misleading example was a very

bad thing to do in tw.bbs.lang.english.
I was countering a misleading example. Someone suggested ¦w as being close
to "un". I merely suggested that there is an even closer (but not
equivalent) example in Chinese.

Is ®¦ a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in "under" than ¦w?

Depends on which form of English you are comparing with.
The 'un' in British English is closer to ¦w,
but the 'un' in American English is closer to ®¦.

Please refer to Gimson's Pronunciation of English (5th edition revised by Cruttenden)
p. 105, for British English, and A course in Phonetics (4th edition by Ladefoged) p. 74
for American and British English.

The tongue position of American English shown in Ladefoged's book is higher than
that of British English, but from my observation it can be even higher in many
occasions.


My two penny's worth.

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Peacenik

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[Geoff]

Post by ´¶³q¤H
Depends on which form of English you are comparing with.
The 'un' in British English is closer to 安,
but the 'un' in American English is closer to 恩.

Books will be books, but no native Enlgish speaker that I have ever heard, in the US or Britain, has ever pronounced "un" anything like 安 "an" is pronounced in standard putonghua. The sound of 恩 "en" is right on the mark.

[Peacenik]

Post by Geoff

Post by ´¶³q¤H
Depends on which form of English you are comparing with.
The 'un' in British English is closer to 安,
but the 'un' in American English is closer to 恩.

Books will be books, but no native Enlgish speaker that I have ever heard,

in the US or Britain, has ever pronounced "un" anything like 安 "an" is
pronounced in standard putonghua. The sound of 恩 "en" is right on the mark.

Case in point:

Many Chinese people pronounce the alphabet as follows:

A B 西 D E .... M 恩 O P Q ...

When I lived in Taiwan I heard many English-speaking friends wonder, "Why do
they pronounce M correctly, but say 'un' instead of 'en'?"

[Peacenik]

Post by 射鷹英雌

：
KimoWebBBS!netnews.kimo.com.tw!news.csie.ncu!news.ncu!ctu-peer!Spring!n
Mr. Peacenik?
pronounce a word with reference to a
English intuitively think it is the closest to upside-down /v/ among the
vowels he can find in Mandarin Chinese.

He is hereby advised to refrain from citing a language he "thinks" he

knows.
I "think" I know english because I'm a native speaker of English.

I think you really mean U.S.ish.

We call it American English. You seem to be under the erroneous impression
that American English is inferior ro British English.

Post by 射鷹英雌
Did you not cite 恩 as a "close" pronunciation for /un/ in "under"?

The problem was you "thought" you knew Mandarin.

I know enough to know how 恩 is pronounced.

Post by 射鷹英雌

analysis I know of.
concerned. Therefore he provided a link to a site where you can hear how the
word is actaully pronounced, didn't he?

Providing a link was good. Citing a misleading example was a very

bad thing to do in tw.bbs.lang.english.
I was countering a misleading example. Someone suggested 安 as being close
to "un". I merely suggested that there is an even closer (but not
equivalent) example in Chinese.

Is 恩 a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in "under" than 安?

Absolutely.

Note that "closer" does not mean "equivalent".

[射鷹英雌]

"thinks" he

Post by 射鷹英雌
I think you really mean U.S.ish.

We call it American English. You seem to be under the erroneous impression
that American English is inferior ro British English.

This is where your intuition hits the mark once in a while. Whether the impression is erroneous, however, will have to be left to those people who live where, or close to where, English was originally spoken.

Post by 射鷹英雌
Did you not cite 恩 as a "close" pronunciation for /un/ in "under"?

The problem was you "thought" you knew Mandarin.
I know enough to know how 恩 is pronounced.

I know 恩 cannot be closer than 安 to the /un/ in "under".

the
very
close

Post by 射鷹英雌
Is 恩 a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in "under" than 安?

Absolutely.

The problem is absolutely clear now. Either Mr. Peacenik's pronunciation of 恩 is quite American, or worse, his pronunciation of "under" never gotten to any standard pronunciation.

Note that "closer" does not mean "equivalent".

I guess you had to be reminded by your teachers again and again so as to think others suffer from the same indiscrimination.

--
Peacenik

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[Peacenik]

Post by 射鷹英雌

"thinks" he

Post by 射鷹英雌
I think you really mean U.S.ish.

We call it American English. You seem to be under the erroneous impression
that American English is inferior ro British English.

This is where your intuition hits the mark once in a while. Whether

the impression is erroneous, however, will have to be left to those people
who live where, or close to where, English was originally spoken.

Why?

By the way, 300 million people speak American English, and most people in
Taiwan prefer to learn American English.

Post by 射鷹英雌

Post by 射鷹英雌
Did you not cite 恩 as a "close" pronunciation for /un/ in "under"?

The problem was you "thought" you knew Mandarin.
I know enough to know how 恩 is pronounced.

I know 恩 cannot be closer than 安 to the /un/ in "under".

Are you deaf?

Post by 射鷹英雌

the
very
close

Post by 射鷹英雌
Is 恩 a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in "under" than 安?

Absolutely.

The problem is absolutely clear now. Either Mr. Peacenik's

pronunciation of 恩 is quite American, or worse, his pronunciation of
"under" never gotten to any standard pronunciation.

Funny that most people on this board disagree with your assessment.

Actually, though I am not totally fluent in Mandarin, people tell me with
sincerity that my pronunciation is excellent. In addition, my English is a
standard educated west-coast American pronunciation.

[射鷹英雌]

Post by Geoff

Post by Geoff
Books will be books, but no native Enlgish speaker that I have ever heard,

in the US or Britain, has ever pronounced "un" anything like 安 "an" is
pronounced in standard putonghua. The sound of 恩 "en" is right on the mark.
A B 西 D E .... M 恩 O P Q ...

A B 西 D E .... N 恩 O P Q ... might have been quite common too.

Post by Geoff
When I lived in Taiwan I heard many English-speaking friends wonder, "Why do
they pronounce M correctly, but say 'un' instead of 'en'?"

Yes, many pronounce N as a nasalised schwa. Is that what you were trying to represent?

Post by Geoff
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Peacenik

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[射鷹英雌]

Post by Peacenik
impression

Post by 射鷹英雌
This is where your intuition hits the mark once in a while. Whether

the impression is erroneous, however, will have to be left to those people
who live where, or close to where, English was originally spoken.
Why?
By the way, 300 million people speak American English,

Specifically, as any above-average educated knows, quantity depreciates quality.

Post by Peacenik
and most people in
Taiwan prefer to learn American English.

Wrong. The prevalence of U.S.ish today is consequence of a Ministry of Education decision, when Junior Middle School education was to become free education, to unify K. K. phonetic alpahabet as the only phonetic alphabet to be taught in National middle schools. Before that, Chinese schools were teaching real English.

Post by Peacenik
"under"?

Post by 射鷹英雌
I know 恩 cannot be closer than 安 to the /un/ in "under".

Are you deaf?

Is this a relevant question?

Post by Peacenik

Post by 射鷹英雌
The problem is absolutely clear now. Either Mr. Peacenik's

pronunciation of 恩 is quite American, or worse, his pronunciation of
"under" never gotten to any standard pronunciation.
Funny that most people on this board disagree with your assessment.
Actually, though I am not totally fluent in Mandarin, people tell me with
sincerity that my pronunciation is excellent. In addition, my English is a
standard educated west-coast American pronunciation.

West Coast? I see. Will you think for a minute where the U. S. federal capital is? And also, huge difference there is between the southern West Coast and the northern West Coast, even if we took Los Angeles as the dividing line.

You must be from northern West Coast, where there are indeed some more "nik"s.

Post by Peacenik
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[射鷹英雌]

"thinks" he

Post by 射鷹英雌
I think you really mean U.S.ish.

We call it American English. You seem to be under the erroneous impression
that American English is inferior ro British English.

Post by 射鷹英雌
Did you not cite 恩 as a "close" pronunciation for /un/ in "under"?

The problem was you "thought" you knew Mandarin.
I know enough to know how 恩 is pronounced.
the
very
close

Post by 射鷹英雌
Is 恩 a "closer" pronunciation of /un/ in "under" than 安?

Absolutely.
Note that "closer" does not mean "equivalent".

Oh, "closer" eh? Will you please tell us what is eauivalent, cause that is what we need here.

--
Peacenik

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